Hyojin Kim – A mark-up engineer

~ Eunyoung ~ Leave a comment

The first interviewee of Women at Work is Hyojin Kim, a mark-up engineer. She started her career as a designer and is working as a mark-up engineer at a startup in Korea.

Hello, Hyojin. Thank you for being my first interviewee. Can you briefly introduce yourself?

Hello, I’m Hyojin Kim. I have been working as a mark-up engineer for the past 15 years. Thank you for choosing me as the first interviewee.

For the people who don’t know, can you tell me about a job of mark-up engineer?

When someone asks me about a mark-up engineer, I explain with the analogy of the process of building a house. Let’s say a website is a house; designers design the blueprint. Then, mark-up engineers build the structures for the house based on the blueprint. Mark-up engineers develop a plan into a structure. Then, other engineers put facilities like electricity and water supply and make the house function as a residence.
To sum up, mark-up engineers predict the structure of a website, document the designer’s outcome, and build the basic structure of a website. Both designing and developing takes a lot of time, but when mark-up gets on the way, it saves time. In my current company, it often happens that frontend and backend engineers take only a few hours to work on the function that I spend a few days to build the structure.

It seems it is essential to balance between designing and developing. How did you become a mark-up engineer?

I started my career as a designer. In the early days of the web, many designers did both design and mark-up, and I was one of them. Design and mark-up came apart as the web standard became popular, and that was the time when I shifted into a mark-up engineer completely.

Hyojin works, cares for her child, exercises, and creates videos on YouTube!

So, did you major in design at school?

I studied design in high school and studied computer science in college. I didn’t feel like focusing on an engineering career, and design felt too hard for me. Building a structure suited better for me than starting from scratch. The web standard started to be universal at that time, so it was natural for me to choose to focus on the mark-up. First, I extended the hours working on mark-up at the company that I was a designer, and I solely became a mark-up engineer as I moved to another company.

What are the qualities that are needed to be a mark-up engineer?

I think a meticulous person who can look at a big-picture is the right person for a mark-up engineer. When I worked as a manager, the fastidious colleagues were good at the job. If they can consider ahead about the problems that they will encounter and do the job precisely, they can deal with unexpected changes or any additional revisions very well.
Also, this applies to all engineers: the people who feel bothered doing repetitive tasks become competent engineers. They continuously think about ways to reduce repetitive tasks and make them automatic and uncomplicated.

How was your managerial job?

At my last company, I was a manager of the mark-up team. I was the first mark-up engineer in the company, and the team got larger, at most eight mark-up engineers. So I naturally became the manager, but it was difficult. I became a manager because I was the most experienced and oldest, but managing teammates didn’t feel like the kind of job that I like. At that time, I realized I wanted to stay as an individual contributor rather than a manager.
It is common to become a manager as you have more experiences, but I think it’s not right. The team needs an expert in managing, or at least, there should be training programs for managers. The promotion as managers due to their age and work experience, without any managerial experience, is harmful to themselves, teammates, and the company.

I agree with that. Managing experience is different from the work experience, so I also think managers need training.
Then, what should one do to become a better mark-up engineer?

One should study fundamental theories in HTML and CSS. Also, since mobile devices are essential nowadays, one should have relevant skills. The new versions come out continuously, and the latest techniques are continually emerging, so it would be good to have an adaptive nature. However, I think since everything changes so fast these days, it applies to everyone, even if you are not an engineer.

When was the time when you were proud of your work?

When I worked at the subsidiary company of the biggest search engine company in Korea, I was proud that I was building the service that almost every Korean uses. Frankly, when I saw my co-workers use it, I was blase. I saw them every day, so it did not feel special because they are part of the company. However, when I saw someone that I don’t know uses the service I built, I felt proud that people use my product conveniently.

Oh, I heard that’s why b2b companies send their employees to the client companies to let them see how people use their service. I think when you see the people using the product well, you become more attached to the product.
Is there any difficulty as a mark-up engineer?

People think that mark-up has a low barrier as a career. Some people say that it is an easy job that every engineer can do. Also, we sometimes feel excluded as some engineers say that we are not engineers. But mark-up alone is sophisticated, and there are many things to learn.
I was lucky enough to meet a lot of good colleagues. Both designers and engineers that I have worked with told me that what I do is necessary and I can be proud of my job. Furthermore, since I am in the tech industry, which is more open-minded and diverse than others, I also haven’t felt much discomfort as a woman before I became a mother.
But there are some difficulties as a mom. I feel a lot of pressure.

What has changed since you became a mother?

I think both my previous company and the current one are one of the good companies for mothers. Unlike many companies in Korea, my companies allow people to work from home and work shorter hours. When I was in my previous company, I live too far away from work, and I couldn’t leave my son at daycare for a long time because he was too young. So I asked my manager for allowing me to work from home and go to the office once a week. It was efficient because I didn’t spend time to commute. But I had a massive pressure in my mind to show people when I was working. So after a month of exhaustiveness, I started to manage my work time. It got better as my colleagues helped each other to work efficiently. I’m also lucky now because I have flexible hours and vacations.

Happy mother, happy child.

How about the friends around you?

So many of my friends don’t have good chances like me. You know, when a child is sick, one of the parents has to take the child to the hospital, and it’s usually the mother. On these kind of occasions, they need to take a day off urgently. Taking a vacation is inevitable, but some co-workers and bosses mind it. Also, as most daycares start at 9 am, and many companies start at 9 am, it is so difficult for parents to drop off the child and go to work on time, which makes parents uneasy to work.

Right. I heard the saying “it takes a village to raise a child,” and I think that includes not only getting direct help but also creating an environment around them so that caregivers can happily raise their children.
What is your goal as an engineer?

I want to be a persistent engineer who can work even if I get older. I am in my late thirties now, but when I was thirty, I was not sure that I could work until I become forties. But as the years passed, I could see the women who are older than me still work. Now, I can see many female engineers who are in their forties. So I want to be like them. Also, I wish the women who are younger than me see me and think that they can do the same as they get older, and even if they have babies. The people who are coding with gray hair look fabulous. But I have rarely seen middle-aged female engineers yet, so I want to be one of them.

That is the purpose of this interview!

Of course, it depends on what people want to see. Young people may want to see a single female engineer, or they may want to listen to the story of a female engineer who is steadily working and raising her children at the same time.

I recently watched an episode about the process of lowering women’s salaries in the Netflix documentary called Explained. It said that women who are single and have no children get 96% of the salary that men make. I still wondered where that 4% difference came from, but I was sad that women who had children received 60% of men.

First of all, I think it is essential to get rid of social prejudice. I don’t feel there are many things that an individual can do. I have seen people who chose to raise their kids over persevering their careers, but most of the cases it’s not their will.
I hope they endure somehow even if their career stops in the middle. I wish mothers could choose for their own happiness. To take care of her children and family, a mother needs to be happy. It’s necessary to be happy together.

Then, what is your dream as an individual Hyojin Kim?

I wish I could continue to work as an engineer and work out as I do now. I love my child and my family, but I think I can love others more as I do what I love. Ultimately, my goal is to be a happy old lady.
Furthermore, I want to keep helping other people. I have been donating to the issues that I think are important even if I can’t do it myself. I have been sponsoring children in overseas, domestic support for the children who were left alone after birth, and animal support groups as I have cats. Of course, it’s beneficial to volunteer myself, but I want to help people who can do better than me as I have limited time.

I think donation is one of the great ways to express my value!
What can you say if you sum up your story altogether?

I am a “working mom who works out.” My hobby is to work out, and it can’t be excluded from my life. So I believe “working mom who works out” is the best phrases for me. There is one time that I feel sorry that I’m not a man: that is when I think I can lift more weight and do more exercises. I like working out so much that I choose to work out rather than eat lunch. I have a simple lunch and go to the gym.

Oh yes, you are famous for loving work out! It’s so cool to see you exercising consistently.
If you meet yourself from five years ago, do you have anything to tell yourself?

Five years ago, I was right before my pregnancy. It was the time that I quit the big company and about to go in the small startup. I visited New York alone for a month, but I was anxious about joining a small company. So I want to tell myself not to be scared and say it’s going to be much better than I thought. I never thought it would work out well at that time.

She went to New York to work out 😆

How was your trip alone?

It was terrific. After marriage, it’s not easy to think that you can travel alone for a long time or far away. But it became my energy to endure my hard times. I think even if a married couple likes different things, they will have a happier marriage when then accept it and support each other. I liked a trip with my son, just the two of us, and I want my husband to have the same chance to do it. Or I will travel alone again. It’s a lot easier when you already have done it.

I will try it too!
Now the last question. Do you have any questions for the next interviewee?

I wonder what she thinks about marriage and birth. I got married early, but my younger sister is not interested in getting married. So I wonder what other women think. Also, I want to ask whether she is happy to be a woman.

After my first interview with Hyojin, it became clearer why I started this interview. I hope more women will be able to believe in their choices and move forward steadily. If you have any questions for Hyojin, please leave a comment or send me an email (eunyoung91@gmail.com).

Why I am starting “Women at Work” interview

~ Eunyoung ~ Leave a comment

For the past three years of my work, I have had three different jobs as a performance marketer, a contents editor, and a people operations manager. While I was pursuing my career, I always pondered about myself: what I am good at and what I enjoy doing. I sought advice from others and searched for interviews, but I had limited resources. Especially when I was looking for a new job, I wondered where I could find the story of the people who are working in the field. It was easy to find interviews of founders and leaders but not stories of teammates. I wanted to know how people end up with what they are doing, the whole story of one person. Notably, the story of women at work was scarce. Among the limited number of stories of women, interviews tend to focus on women leaders, not on team members, but I wanted to listen to everyone.

After I finished my career in Korea and was getting ready to relocate in the U.S., I thought this was the perfect time for me to start this interview. It would be easier to talk about an individual without any pressure to promote a company as I will not be affiliated to any company for a while.

The interviews that I will do in Women at Work are the career path of a person, not as an employee of a company. I want to show diverse lifestyles by talking about past, present, and future: what they have done, the proudest moment of their career, difficulties they had, the ultimate goal of their work-life, and so on. I will interview women in different occupations, levels, and duties in the U.S. and Korea. I am going to post the English versions of the interview here in my blog and the Korean version at Brunch.

Young women are inspired and affected by female role models at work. If people like themselves are in leadership roles or persevere at work in spite of their age, they will think they can pursue their career goals continuously. However, sometimes, it is hard to find a role model inside of one’s own company. I hope these interviews help when people don’t have any female coworkers who remained in the workplace for long, when they are curious about the life of people who are 3~4 years ahead in the career paths, and when they know nobody in the prospective field.

Thank you in advance, my prospective interviewees.

Why even a small startup needs People Operations

~ Eunyoung ~ Leave a comment

This post was written in Korean July 2018. Here is LINK to the original post.

. . . . .

It has been 8 months since I started my job at CLOSER (at the time I wrote this article in Korean). When I was asked to join the team and told my old co-workers that I am starting as a people operations manager, some people asked, “why is the people operations manager needed when there are only 8 people?” At that point, I was not sure about what I am going to and should do so I couldn’t answer to that question. But now, I have the courage to say that we need to think a lot about the way to build the better team with even 8 people.

When I first started my job at CLOSER, I pondered a lot. Even though I joined to make the better team, I didn’t know where to start. I had started the job after spending 2 years as a marketer, I had only 2 years of work experience, and nobody was there to teach me.

So I started to listen to what my team members say about our team: what the problems of our team are, what they want from the company, and how they want to build their careers.

We had some communication issues, individual career issues, and policy issues. As we were focusing on “what we have to do right now,” we didn’t know and couldn’t do “what we want to do.” People were not motivated as we were always pressed for time. Also, since our team was (and still is) in the early stage, we didn’t have any rules and policies.

I am having 1-on-1s with all members monthly so that I can understand and keep track of their status and emotions. I am trying different methods for more open and clearer communication. As CEO and tech-lead kept cutting off each other’s and other members’ word, we tried not cutting off others’ word in one of the meetings about the product. I explained the purpose of the meeting and reminded them not to cut off words before the meeting. It was successful. After a few more meetings, people actually listen to what others say and respond to that. Once, we spent a day for the individual project to support an individual’s interest and creativity, and it was successful.

Since I couldn’t see whether what I do has an immediate impact on the team, I had little faith in my achievements. I was not sure I was doing right, or what I do was helping our team. However, I received a feedback from other members at the workshop we did in June and became little more confident to write about my job.

I prepared for the session that each member gives feedback to others and these are what I got. “After I joined this team, I realized that communication and good company culture are important and that can be improved.” “I can trust her and she gave us psychological safety as she enabled us to talk about what we want and actually made the team better.” “Having 1-on-1s with her, I improved on my communication skills and started to think more about my career growth.” “She has the power to motivate the team and bring the team into one.” “I have good hopes on what she will do next.” After I got these feedbacks, I could be certain that caring and concerns about team members are essential for their psychological safety.

As I experienced and heard from others, complaints are inevitable even on small startups. Employers and employees have different thoughts and it is hard to narrow the gap between those two. Some of the employees don’t even have a chance to say their opinions, and some just stop talking and leave because employers never change.

Since we have only 8 members in our team, I am trying to pay attention to what members say and trying things to make the team better. It has only been 7 months since I started and I have a long way to go but I want to build the team that people can grow and work happily as we try and grow step by step.

Apps I used on the trips

~ Eunyoung ~ Leave a comment

This post was originally written in May 2019 at Medium.

I’m planning to move to the US with my spouse soon. Before he starts his job, we had a few months vacation due to the visa issue, so we visited a few places: Chiang Mai, Thailand with my mother in law, the cities in Portugal and London, just two of us, and Da Nang, Vietnam with my parents. For these trips, I used several new features and new apps that I wanted to share with fellow travelers.

  • Google Maps
    Of course, it is the best app for maps but Your places, Explore nearby, and Your timeline features were unexpectedly useful. 
    Before the trip, I looked for the places that I want to visit and added them to my Want to go list, and shared with my spouse. Then, when the day came, we planned the route for the day. Your places enabled us to plan the trip of the day and visit the places we wanted. But I felt a little tired of opening the app over and over again, so I thought the notification, when I am near the saved places, would have been a useful tool during the trip.
    Explore nearby was useful when we didn’t have any idea of where to go. On the first day of our Portugal trip, my spouse and I arrived in Porto at 11 pm. We didn’t want to waste the first night at Porto so explored and found a place to drink our first glass of wine in Porto.
    Your timeline was useful when I wrote the diary at night. As it shows the path I went and the pictures I took at the place, Your timeline summarizes the day. It became much more useful when I wrote the diaries a few days later. The trip route refreshed my memory 😛
  • Triple
    Triple is the app for Korean travelers. I heard about this on my favorite podcast and downloaded it before the trip. Triple introduces the cities and has a lot of information about the places to stay, visit, eat, and drink. I can save the places that I want to visit and get some tips from the editors and other users. This app shines on your first visit to the countries that you don’t know the language. 
    When my mother-in-law, my spouse, and I went to Chiang Mai, none of us had an idea about the language(we couldn’t even read the alphabet). Thanks to Triple, I had the necessary information about the places we want to visit (from how to go there to the history of the site). I explained the history of the places we visited and shared some tips about there. All of us could enjoy the trip more with some pieces of knowledge. Also, Triple enables the users to write comments so we could choose the trip schedules and restaurants based on the empirical observations.
    The most useful function was creating the route. When I put the places that I want to visit, it automatically creates the best route for me. After I got the way, I could modify it as I want, which made it better.
    My spouse and I didn’t use it to find restaurants in Portugal and London because we wanted to go to the restaurants where the local people go. (So we got some advice from the people we met.) If Triple can get more information about not-touristy restaurants, it would be awesome. (While writing this, I have the dilemma. If local restaurants become famous among tourists, they become touristy, so I’m not sure how this would work.)
    As Triple has such a vast database of trips, I think they would make a great app for travelers in Korea. Even though my country is small, there are so many beautiful places to visit and so many delicious foods! With a vast database and the empirical reviews, the app could be an exellent help for first-time travelers to Korea.
  • Lime
    While walking around Lisbon, I spotted a lot of electric scooters: Lime, Hive, Tire, Voi, Bungo, and Wind. Eager to try this new kind of transportation, I persuaded my spouse for three days to try one of the scooters. We started our ride from Miradouro da Nossa Senhora do Monte and went to Jardim Botto Machado. The trip took 11 minutes, and we rode 876 meters (0.54 miles). Lime said we saved 223 g of carbon each.
    The handle was big for me,s so it was a bit hard to control the scooter at first, but I became used to it soon. However, Lisbon downtown was not the best place to ride an electric scooter for me because the road is too rough. As the streets are covered with cobblestones, I could feel the stones with my whole body. And bicycle roads were not very common, so it was a little dangerous. I wished I had have tried it on the beach road, which is more suitable for scooters. Once I have a chance to visit the country with scooter rental services again, I will definitely try it again on more comfortable roads.
  • Grab
    I assume most people who traveled to Southeast Asia have used or heard of Grab. This is the Southeast Asian version of Uber and Lyft, but there was the episode that I wanted to include Grab to this list.
    When I visited a shopping mall in Vietnam with my parents and my spouse, a man approached us. He said that he would drive us to the hotel with the amount of what Grab shows, to avoid to pay Grab commissions. He rushed us so we didn’t have much time to think it through and my mother and I were a little anxious in the car. We, fortunately, got back to the hotel safely but I think I would have never ride a car like that if I was alone or just with my spouse.
  • myrealtrip
    This is a Korean service, which enables travelers to get cheaper tickets and USIM services. I bought the tickets for Warner Brothers Studio Tour London — The Making of Harry Potter and USIM for Thailand, Europe, and Vietnam.
    Since I am a huge Harry Potter fan, visiting Harry Potter Studio was one of the biggest reason that I wanted to visit London. We tried to find the ticket a month before our visit but could not find the tickets. It was impossible to find the tickets we wanted. After we bought the refundable tickets, I found the tickets at myrealtrip.com! They were the cheapest tickets without the time limit. So we refunded the previous ones and got the new ones. I think more precise and more specific instructions on what to expect right after the purchase will lead to more purchase because I was worried that I might not get the legit tickets. Even though we were a little unclear that we got the right ticket at first, getting the actual tickets at the studio was smooth, and we spent 7 hours in the studio. As a big Harry Potter fan and a future media production worker, we wandered around on our own pace. It is almost impossible to get the tickets from the official webpage. However, with myrealtrip, I could fully enjoy my day with Harry Potter.

Thanks to these excellent services, I could enjoy fully in a few different countries, and I still use some of them to look for the next trip.